The mommy and daddy wars
Jun 19, 2009 In my humble opinion, Love & Marriage, Stay-at-home Dads
I received a comment to my post Dad’s are good parents too that requires a rather lengthy response. So I just decided to make it a blog post. You know, since I’ve been neglecting my blog for the last week anyway.
Leme wants to know why I’m upset that people slam stay-at-home dads “when we have been criticizing women who stay at home, for the past 40 years.” As if the fact that moms have been criticized for staying home makes it ok to then criticize fathers. That’s like saying Jimmy punched Sam because Sam stole his basketball. Ever heard the saying two wrongs don’t make a right?
So let’s break the comment down:
I would sincerely like to know why it is wrong to criticize men for staying home and not having a career, when we have been criticizing women who stay at home, for the past 40 years?
Did you read my post? Because I believe I explained why it’s wrong. I also NEVER once criticized women who stay home. It is wrong to criticize ANYBODY for staying home. What business is it of yours what my family or any other family does? If you want to stay home, if your spouse wants to stay home, if you both want to work, whatever…that is a decision for you and your family. Not anybody else’s concern. You’re use of “we” is a very general term, but that “we” does not include me or really anybody that I know. I know plenty of stay-at-home moms AND dads and none of us have been criticizing anybody for staying home this year or any time in the last 40 years.
Ever since Betty Friedan’s book The Feminine Mystique, we have been told that it is absolutely essential for women to have careers because staying at home would leave them depressed and unfulfilled. Also women have been told that staying at home puts them in the position of being dependent on their husbands and therefore unequal and unprepared to support themselves in the event of their husband leaving them due to divorce or death.
Friedan’s goal wasn’t to criticize stay-at-home moms. She was fighting for equal rights for women. She also talked about her own loneliness and the isolation many women did (and still do) feel at home. Part of her goal was to inform women. Personally I think some of the points Friedan and many of the other prominent feminists is good for woman to know. It’s good for women to realize they have opportunities and don’t have to stay home if they don’t want to. Woman have options. They can get an education. They can work. They can marry. They can have children. Or they can do them all. Or none of them. Or pick and choose. Being informed about your options is never a bad thing. It only helps you make better, informed decisions and look at the pros and cons of those decisions.
Do you also respond with anger when you hear stay at home moms ridiculed and put-down and told that they should have careers instead of being at home?
As stated above, yes.
Do you also object when young women are told that they should be certain to get a good education so they can have a career and support themselves and not be dependent on a man?
No. I think all people, regardless of gender, should get an education and learn to support themselves. These are important lessons for every young person to learn. Having options isn’t bad a bad thing. Telling young people to get an education because it will help them with their future goals is a good thing. If they fall in love, get married, have children and choose to stay home rather than pursue a career then that’s their choice. But at least they were able to make an informed decision about that choice.
Why is it wrong to tell a man he shouldnt be dependent on a woman, but not equally wrong to tell a woman she shouldn’t be dependent on a man but should instead have her own income?
It’s wrong for anybody to stick their nose in to other people’s business and act like they have the authority to tell them how to manage their families.
I don’t believe the message (at least not the message I give) is that woman should always have their own income and never be dependent on a man. However, as I’ve stated several times it needs to be her informed decision.
And I don’t believe there should be his and her income in a marriage. You are married. That income supports your whole family (dad, mom, and children)…not just the person whose name is on the paycheck.
Finally being dependent on somebody isn’t always about money. I am dependent on my husband to be a good partner. To help me with the kids. And to help me with the household. It would be extremely hard to provide for my family on my own, therefore I’m dependent on my husband to help support our family.
You object to people saying your husband should get a job. Why do you object to that?
Because it’s nobody’s business but ours. We support our family. We don’t live on welfare. Nobody else supports us. It’s our decision, and nobody else’s, whether we’ve decided to allow my husband to be the stay-at-home parent or not.
Isn’t that exactly what we’ve been telling women for the past 40 years?
Some people have been trying to force women to get a job, but they are the minority. There are still a lot of stay-at-home moms in the U.S. According to the U.S. Census 5.4M moms were stay-at-home moms in 2004. And in fact the number of stay-at-home moms (and dads) has grown in almost every year from 1995 to 2006. So clearly there is still a large group of women who either aren’t hearing this message or don’t care what some blow hard has to say about the SAHM’s own family.
You object to people saying your husband shouldn’t be dependent on you? Why do you object to that? Isn’t that the exact same thing we’ve been telling women?
Again, because it’s nobody’s business but ours. And, like I’ve said repeatedly, we aren’t all telling women that either.
And actually, for the record, my objection is to people who think stay-at-home dads are unnatural or call them a pussy or whatever else they have to say about stay-at-home dads. I don’t believe I ever spoke of dependency. Being dependent on each other is part of a marriage whether you work or not. And really has nothing to do with money.
Your marriage has gotten stronger because your husband stays home? And if a man said his marriage is stronger because his wife stays home, feminists would want to lynch him.
I think many feminists would be offended by this comment. Yes, some feminists do take it to the extreme, but the majority are looking for equal rights. Not cutting down men. They want things like equal opportunity in jobs and education, women executives, and equal pay. They don’t want to be told they have to sit home, raise their children, and service their husbands…unless they they want to. If a woman was staying home only because her husband or society wanted her to, not because it was a decision she made, then a man wouldn’t be able to claim his marriage is stronger. An unhappy wife does not make a marriage stronger.
It makes for a stronger marriage when one partner is financially dependent on the other? Good, then lets tell the feminists that they are completely wrong to call for equality in marriage!
No, feminists are absolutely right in asking for equality in marriage. But equality in marriage doesn’t mean both partners in the marriage make the same amount of money and do the same chores and split everything 50/50. Equality in marriage isn’t about the individual marriage. It’s about marriage as a whole. We need to move away from the assumption that the man works and the woman stays home in every family. Families need to be able to make their own decisions about what works best for their family.
If you think that staying home is so wonderful I’m sure that you will encourage your daughter and all other young women to avoid careers and be a full time stay at home parent because that’s the way to have a strong marriage and “really bond” with your kids, won’t you? Yeah right!
This doesn’t really make any sense. Why would I tell my daughter to be a stay-at-home mom when I myself am a working mom. Don’t you mean I will tell my sons to all be stay-at-home dads since that’s what we do in our family?
But to answer your question, no. I encourage all of my children to do well in school and to be independent. I don’t want any of my children to have to be dependent on somebody else. They need to be able to stand on their own. Then when they are older and fall in love they can make the decision that is best for their family. They can work with their partner to determine the dynamics of their marriage. They won’t have to be told by their partner what will happen in their family. They will be an active and informed contributor to their relationship.
Again, please tell me why it is wrong to condemn men who stay at home, while it’s not wrong to condemn women who stay at home and tell them they should have careers instead?
It’s wrong because both men and women can be loving and caring parents. It’s wrong because children gain important lessons from both parents and should be allowed to spend quality time with both their mother and their father. Gone are the days when dads came home from work, sat down to read the paper and ignore their kids. Raising children is not woman’s work. Raising children is parent’s work. And telling a dad he is a pussy because he spends time with his children is an ignorant comment that serves no purpose in an intelligent discussion about raising children and what’s right for families. But most importantly it’s wrong because IT’S NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS.
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Tags: Betty Friedan, daddy wars, marriage, mommy wars, SAHD, SAHM, stay-at-home dad, stay-at-home mom, The Feminine Mystique
June 19th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Well said Christine. As you know, I have been independent, supporitng myself (and my family) all of my adult life. I consider myself to be a feminist and a strong supporter of women’s rights (and all rights).
And, I totally agree with you that whether or not a man or a woman stays at home is decision to be made by the individuals and family unit involved. For me, I would never chose to stay home – it would not fit my personality at all. But, I would never condemn a woman or a man who chose to stay at home and care for her or his family. As long as the family can support this without requiring me to pay for it
I know, in your case, it was absolutely the right decision for Lee to chose to stay home with the children. It had many, many benefits for the family. It was actually less expensive for the family – since child care even in small towns is outrageously expensive, the income he would have been able to generate at the time wouldn’t have outweighed the expense for caring for 3 children full time (and I think part time for the older boys).
Plus, it allowed Lee to complete his education. It is awesome that he was able to set this excellent example for the kids in the family – to show the importance of post-high school education.
And, I love that he was able to bond so closely with the kids. Because we try to live up to these arbitrary stereotypes, too many Dads feel that they have to focus so much on their careers that they don’t bond with their children. I think this is the saddest thing of all.
I found the comments of your “commenter” to be insulting to women. I am not sure where she got this “40 years” of telling women not to stay at home. I was in junior high / high school 40 years ago and I was getting the opposite message. I am excellent at Math and Science, but my school counselors thought my only career options were to TEACH math and science to others. (Thankfully, I was able to break out of these preconceived notions in college.)
We should always fight stereotypes and generalizations. True equality comes from recognizing that the individual (and the family) are each unique and to celebrate the differences and the decisions that each makes for themselves; from recognizing that we can be happy with our ouwn choices and lives without comparing them to our neighbors expectations of what we should be.
June 20th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Great points. I’m a work at home mom, and two of my sisters have their husbands as the stay at home parent. It all depends on what works for each family.
My oldest daughter is already expressing interest in being a stay at home mom. I’ve made sure that she understands why she should get an education, but that if she chooses to be at home, it’s her decision. And I talk to her a lot about the possibilities for working at home, so that she really understands that being an at home parent doesn’t have to mean you don’t earn anything, unless that’s how you choose to be.
July 1st, 2009 at 2:16 am
I asked a very simple question. Since you expressed objection to your husband getting criticism for staying at home rather than working outside the home, I asked why is it wrong to tell men they should have a career and be independent when that is the same thing we have been telling women for the last 40 years? Do you not get it? We have told women to have their own careers and not be dependent on their husbands. I simply ask why is it wrong to tell men the exact same thing? Simple question. You object when people tell your husband he should get a job rather than stay at home. Why is that objectionable when it is the exact same identical thing we have been telling women?
Your initial response is to say that YOU never criticized women who stay at home. I never said YOU did. I said “we” meaning the society as a whole have advised women to continue with their careers rather than stay at home, so why is it wrong for society to advise men the exact same thing that society is advising women? You then respond that it’s nobody’s business. Well there must be a reason why you’re writing publicly about your family. Maybe there were women in the ’60s and ’70s and today who think it’s nobody’s business that they choose to stay at home, but there is an awful lot of women who write books, articles, and essays condemning them for staying home, but that didn’t stop these commenters from advising them to “get a job.” So again a simple question: Why is it nobody’s business when a man stays home, but everybody’s business when a woman stays home? I mean in the interest of equality, as long as we’re making it everybody’s business when women stay home rather than have a career, then let’s also make it everybody’s business when a man stays home rather than has a career. Equality right?
If you like I’ll be happy to quote you what Betty Friedan had to say about stay at home moms (why was it her “business” to comment on what other people did?) since you seem unfamiliar with statements. But you say she was concerned with the loneliness and isolation of stay at home moms. Fine. Then why is it wrong to be equally concerned about the loneliness and isolation of stay at home dads? Men who stay at home are a lot more lonely and isolated because they are not able to join groups of other men as women can join groups of other stay at home moms. So if it’s acceptable to tell women that they shouldn’t stay at home because they’ll be lonely and isolated? That’s okay? No one should tell you it’s none of your business? Good, then it’s equally acceptable to tell men the exact same thing, right? If we write that you’re lonely and isolated at home, then intent is to advise you to leave home and get a job, which is exactly what people are telling your husband.
You say it’s wrong for someone to “stick their nose” in someone else’s business and tell them how to run their family. But again this gets back to the original question of why is it wrong when the family has a stay at home dad, but not wrong to tell someone “how to run their family” when the family has a stay at home mom? If you wish to say that no one should ever tell anyone how to run their family, I could agree, but since we have no problem with telling stay at home mom families how their families should be run and and that they should be working, then I can’t have a problem with telling stay at home dad families exactly the same thing.
“Why would I tell my daughter to be a stay at home mom when I myself am I working mom?…But to answer your question no I encourage all my children to do well in school and be independent. I don’t want any of my children to have to be dependent on someone else.”
I think that comment sums it all up perfectly. You were asked would you want your daughter to be a stay at home mom, and you responded that no you wouldnt because you want your children to “be independent” and because you don’t want them “to be dependent on someone else.” Do you realize what you just said? You responded to a question about being a stay at home parent with strong statements negatively equating staying at home with being dependent. That’s your husband. He is a stay at home parent and by your own definition that means he lacks independence and is dependent on you. You object to him being called a “pussy” and yet your own insistence that your children not be “dependent on someone else” shows you to have the same objection to not having your own career. It’s very revealing of what people really think of stay at home parents when you ask them if they would want their daughters to be stay at home moms. Your husband is not being called names because he spends time with his children, he’s called negative names because he is dependent on you rather than independent as you insist you want all your children to be. Why is it so important that your children be independent but not your husband?