Remember Leme? The person who commented on my Dads are good parents too post? In that post I quoted some morons who left ridiculous comments on a MomLogic post about stay-at-home dads. I was commenting on how it ticks me off when people call stay-at-home dads “unnatural” or “pussies” because dads can be just as good of parents as moms. In fact I really like the trend in recent years where dads are becoming active participants in their children’s lives.

Leme wanted to know why it made me mad when people criticize stay-at-home dads when we’ve been criticizing stay-at-home moms for the last 40 years. I think I answered that question in my follow-up post; The mommy and daddy wars. But apparently Leme disagrees. So here are a few more words on feminism and staying home…for Leme.

Leme – Your question was not a simple question. Your question is a question that continues to fuel the mommy (and now daddy) wars. Your question is naive and irresponsible. Did you even read my response to your comment? Or do YOU not understand?

Why is it wrong to tell men they should have a career and be independent when that is the same thing we have been telling women for the last 40 years? It’s wrong because when something is wrong you should try to fix it. Not just say “well it’s always been that way so why change it now.”

100 years ago women could not vote. Only poor unmarried women worked outside the home; and then it was in jobs that were considered “women’s work” – jobs as domestics, teachers, or nurses. Women couldn’t be doctors or lawyers or fight for their country in the military. They didn’t have the educational opportunities that men had. After all you didn’t need an education to be a wife and mother. They couldn’t hold public office or even have an opinion on politics. Really they couldn’t even have their own thoughts. They were the property of their husband.

For centuries girls were told to devote their lives to finding a husband and having children. They were brought up to believe their whole self-worth was wrapped up in their marriage and children. That was what was expected of them. They didn’t get a say. That’s just how it was. And some women were perfectly happy with that. But some women weren’t. However they didn’t know there were others out there that were just as unhappy. They didn’t have a voice.

And then some brave women stood up and demanded they be heard. They demanded they have a right to make decisions that effected them and their lives. And then in 1920 women won the right to vote.

But women weren’t willing to stop there. They continued to fight for their rights. To be equals to men. To have their own opinions and the same opportunities as men. To be whatever they wanted to be.

And as women, whether we stay home or work, we should be grateful that somebody stood up for us. Were all of their ideas good ideas? No, but at least they were willing to fight for what they believed in, get a dialog started, and create change. If we’re dissatisfied with our lives we need learn from these early feminists and fight for our right to be heard.

“Why was it [Friedan's] “business” to comment on what other people did?” Because Friedan didn’t call women names for being stay-at-home moms. Instead she did her research. She surveyed the women at her high school reunion. She spent five years talking to moms to find out what they were feeling. And she spoke as somebody who had been there; somebody who gave up her career to stay home with her children. Most of the people who criticize stay-at-home dads have never been a stay-at-home dad; many aren’t even dads. At least Betty Friedan could speak from experience…rather than ignorance.

“I said “we” meaning the society as a whole…” I absolutely disagree. I do not believe that society as a whole has been advising women to continue with their careers rather than be a stay-at-home mom. Of course there have been some vocal opponents of stay-at-home moms, there have also been many opponents of working moms. But “as a whole” I think many people believe it’s perfectly fine for women to put their careers on hold or even abandon a career completely and take on a new career as a full-time mom. Laura Schlessinger is a big proponent of stay-at-home moms. She even goes so far as to say that all moms should stay home with their children for at least the first five years. This is the exact opposite of what you think “we” as a whole are saying. When Linda Hirshman, and more recently, Gretchen Ritter came out against stay-at-home moms saying it’s “dangerous” for women to stay home and that women should have a career, they received a ton of backlash for their comments. I would say “we” are somewhere in the middle. “We” think women should do whatever they think is right for them and their family; be it working outside the home or being a stay-at-home mom…as long as the decision is hers.

Additionally, as I stated in my rebuttal, more and more women are staying home with their children in recent years. Due in part to the feminist movement, many women sought out careers rather than staying home in the 1980s and early 1990s, but that number has been steadily declining since 1990. Woman have decided they don’t need to listen to society to tell them what do to do. They’ve decided the best person to make decision about their life is them. So some women are continuing in the workforce. And others are deciding to stay home. They’re doing what’s best for them.

Then why is it wrong to be equally concerned about the loneliness and isolation of stay at home dads. It’s perfectly fine to be concerned about a dad’s loneliness and isolation. In fact that’s why we talk about it. To educate people that there are stay-at-home dads out there who are perfectly capable of hosting a playdate or mingling with the moms at PTO meetings. And dad’s should understand that staying home may have some disadvantages. It can be lonely. So dads (and moms) need to find support systems. They need to find activities and hobbies for themselves and their children.

I think this was Betty Friedan’s point with her book. I think Betty Friedan was letting women know they weren’t alone. There were other women out there that were feeling just as lonely and unsatisfied with their lives as they were. We find comfort in numbers. Not every women was dissatisfied, but some were and they thought they were alone because everybody else seemed to have the perfect families and the perfect lives. But in reality, staying home isn’t for every women (or man) or every family.

Yes, I did say I encourage my children to get an education and not be dependent on somebody else. But I also continued with “Then when they are older and fall in love they can make the decision that is best for their family. They can work with their partner to determine the dynamics of their marriage. They won’t have to be told by their partner what will happen in their family. They will be an active and informed contributor to their relationship.” If any of my children (either my daughter or my sons) decide to be a stay-at-home parent I think that would be wonderful. As long as it’s his/her decision and not solely his/her partners decision. I think it’s important for all children (regardless of race) to explore and find what interests them and makes them happy. Not just settle for what their spouse or society chooses for them.

You said, “You responded to a question about being a stay at home parent with strong statements negatively equating staying at home with being dependent.” As I stated, being dependent on somebody isn’t about money. We are all dependent on others for some reason or another; I’m dependent on my husband for companionship, on my children for help around the house, on my boss to provide me with a paycheck. However, when I say I don’t want my children to be dependent on somebody else I’m referring to their livelihood. I’m referring to their happiness. I’m referring to their decisions. I don’t want them to be dependent on somebody else to make all the decisions for them and they just be submissive. I expect my children to stand up for themselves and have their own voice.

And for the record, my husband is very independent. He has many friends he’s known his whole life and continues to hang out with to this day. He is an avid football fan who runs a fantasy league every winter. He loves to play softball and plays in a couple of different leagues, several nights a week from April through September. He does bring in a little bit of income doing side jobs, helping people with their computer problems. And he used this opportunity as a stay-at-home dad to go back to college and get his degree. So while my paycheck may be what pays our mortgage, my husband is very much an independent man who makes his own decisions.

You seem to be stuck on this idea that getting an education is the opposite of being a stay-at-home mom. Therefore, when we encourage our children to get an education rather than devote their young adulthood to finding a suitable husband that means we are discouraging them from being a mom. That’s so not the case. It’s not black and white. In reality we are encouraging our children to explore the world, to learn new things, and to find themselves. Then they can decide what they like best. Some women love being stay-at-home moms. Some aren’t cut out for it. But both can be equally capable and loving moms and wives.

I received a comment to my post Dad’s are good parents too that requires a rather lengthy response. So I just decided to make it a blog post. You know, since I’ve been neglecting my blog for the last week anyway.

Leme wants to know why I’m upset that people slam stay-at-home dads “when we have been criticizing women who stay at home, for the past 40 years.” As if the fact that moms have been criticized for staying home makes it ok to then criticize fathers. That’s like saying Jimmy punched Sam because Sam stole his basketball. Ever heard the saying two wrongs don’t make a right?

So let’s break the comment down:

I would sincerely like to know why it is wrong to criticize men for staying home and not having a career, when we have been criticizing women who stay at home, for the past 40 years?

Did you read my post? Because I believe I explained why it’s wrong. I also NEVER once criticized women who stay home. It is wrong to criticize ANYBODY for staying home. What business is it of yours what my family or any other family does? If you want to stay home, if your spouse wants to stay home, if you both want to work, whatever…that is a decision for you and your family. Not anybody else’s concern. You’re use of “we” is a very general term, but that “we” does not include me or really anybody that I know. I know plenty of stay-at-home moms AND dads and none of us have been criticizing anybody for staying home this year or any time in the last 40 years.

Ever since Betty Friedan’s book The Feminine Mystique, we have been told that it is absolutely essential for women to have careers because staying at home would leave them depressed and unfulfilled. Also women have been told that staying at home puts them in the position of being dependent on their husbands and therefore unequal and unprepared to support themselves in the event of their husband leaving them due to divorce or death.

Friedan’s goal wasn’t to criticize stay-at-home moms. She was fighting for equal rights for women. She also talked about her own loneliness and the isolation many women did (and still do) feel at home. Part of her goal was to inform women. Personally I think some of the points Friedan and many of the other prominent feminists is good for woman to know. It’s good for women to realize they have opportunities and don’t have to stay home if they don’t want to. Woman have options. They can get an education. They can work. They can marry. They can have children. Or they can do them all. Or none of them. Or pick and choose. Being informed about your options is never a bad thing. It only helps you make better, informed decisions and look at the pros and cons of those decisions.

Do you also respond with anger when you hear stay at home moms ridiculed and put-down and told that they should have careers instead of being at home?

As stated above, yes.

Do you also object when young women are told that they should be certain to get a good education so they can have a career and support themselves and not be dependent on a man?

No. I think all people, regardless of gender, should get an education and learn to support themselves. These are important lessons for every young person to learn. Having options isn’t bad a bad thing. Telling young people to get an education because it will help them with their future goals is a good thing. If they fall in love, get married, have children and choose to stay home rather than pursue a career then that’s their choice. But at least they were able to make an informed decision about that choice.

Why is it wrong to tell a man he shouldnt be dependent on a woman, but not equally wrong to tell a woman she shouldn’t be dependent on a man but should instead have her own income?

It’s wrong for anybody to stick their nose in to other people’s business and act like they have the authority to tell them how to manage their families.

I don’t believe the message (at least not the message I give) is that woman should always have their own income and never be dependent on a man. However, as I’ve stated several times it needs to be her informed decision.

And I don’t believe there should be his and her income in a marriage. You are married. That income supports your whole family (dad, mom, and children)…not just the person whose name is on the paycheck.

Finally being dependent on somebody isn’t always about money. I am dependent on my husband to be a good partner. To help me with the kids. And to help me with the household. It would be extremely hard to provide for my family on my own, therefore I’m dependent on my husband to help support our family.

You object to people saying your husband should get a job. Why do you object to that?

Because it’s nobody’s business but ours. We support our family. We don’t live on welfare. Nobody else supports us. It’s our decision, and nobody else’s, whether we’ve decided to allow my husband to be the stay-at-home parent or not.

Isn’t that exactly what we’ve been telling women for the past 40 years?

Some people have been trying to force women to get a job, but they are the minority. There are still a lot of stay-at-home moms in the U.S. According to the U.S. Census 5.4M moms were stay-at-home moms in 2004. And in fact the number of stay-at-home moms (and dads) has grown in almost every year from 1995 to 2006. So clearly there is still a large group of women who either aren’t hearing this message or don’t care what some blow hard has to say about the SAHM’s own family.

You object to people saying your husband shouldn’t be dependent on you? Why do you object to that? Isn’t that the exact same thing we’ve been telling women?

Again, because it’s nobody’s business but ours. And, like I’ve said repeatedly, we aren’t all telling women that either.

And actually, for the record, my objection is to people who think stay-at-home dads are unnatural or call them a pussy or whatever else they have to say about stay-at-home dads. I don’t believe I ever spoke of dependency. Being dependent on each other is part of a marriage whether you work or not. And really has nothing to do with money.

Your marriage has gotten stronger because your husband stays home? And if a man said his marriage is stronger because his wife stays home, feminists would want to lynch him.

I think many feminists would be offended by this comment. Yes, some feminists do take it to the extreme, but the majority are looking for equal rights. Not cutting down men. They want things like equal opportunity in jobs and education, women executives, and equal pay. They don’t want to be told they have to sit home, raise their children, and service their husbands…unless they they want to. If a woman was staying home only because her husband or society wanted her to, not because it was a decision she made, then a man wouldn’t be able to claim his marriage is stronger. An unhappy wife does not make a marriage stronger.

It makes for a stronger marriage when one partner is financially dependent on the other? Good, then lets tell the feminists that they are completely wrong to call for equality in marriage!

No, feminists are absolutely right in asking for equality in marriage. But equality in marriage doesn’t mean both partners in the marriage make the same amount of money and do the same chores and split everything 50/50. Equality in marriage isn’t about the individual marriage. It’s about marriage as a whole. We need to move away from the assumption that the man works and the woman stays home in every family. Families need to be able to make their own decisions about what works best for their family.

If you think that staying home is so wonderful I’m sure that you will encourage your daughter and all other young women to avoid careers and be a full time stay at home parent because that’s the way to have a strong marriage and “really bond” with your kids, won’t you? Yeah right!

This doesn’t really make any sense. Why would I tell my daughter to be a stay-at-home mom when I myself am a working mom. Don’t you mean I will tell my sons to all be stay-at-home dads since that’s what we do in our family?

But to answer your question, no. I encourage all of my children to do well in school and to be independent. I don’t want any of my children to have to be dependent on somebody else. They need to be able to stand on their own. Then when they are older and fall in love they can make the decision that is best for their family. They can work with their partner to determine the dynamics of their marriage. They won’t have to be told by their partner what will happen in their family. They will be an active and informed contributor to their relationship.

Again, please tell me why it is wrong to condemn men who stay at home, while it’s not wrong to condemn women who stay at home and tell them they should have careers instead?

It’s wrong because both men and women can be loving and caring parents. It’s wrong because children gain important lessons from both parents and should be allowed to spend quality time with both their mother and their father. Gone are the days when dads came home from work, sat down to read the paper and ignore their kids. Raising children is not woman’s work. Raising children is parent’s work. And telling a dad he is a pussy because he spends time with his children is an ignorant comment that serves no purpose in an intelligent discussion about raising children and what’s right for families. But most importantly it’s wrong because IT’S NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS.

The other day I was reading MomLogic’s article Jon Gosselin is NOT a Stay-at-Home Dad!. I really couldn’t care less if Jon really is a stay-at-home dad or if Kate is too controlling or anything else about this family. I’m so tired of hearing about them I’d like to pluck my eyeballs out with rusty, jagged spoons then read one more tabloid story about them.

BUT…

I was struck by the comments on this post. Whenever you start talking about stay-at-home dads the morons peek their heads out of the woodwork to give their two cents.

Moron exhibit #1:

Whenever a man is a stay at home parent it makes me sick. Men are supposed to be the providers. It is unnatural for a man to want to be around his kids as much as a woman, women have more patience and tolerance. That is just how we were created. I can’t see how any man could truly feel like the head of his household staying at home while his wife works to provide. -Erika

Men are supposed to be the providers? Providing for your family isn’t just monetary. Husbands and fathers need to contribute emotionally and physically as well. Lee doesn’t contribute much money to our household budget, but he still makes a huge contribution to our family. He provides us with love and devotion. He provides me with more time. He provides the kids with guidance. He doesn’t have a job, but he is definitely a provider.

It is unnatural for a man to want to be around his kids as much as a woman? I think it’s pathetic that you would want to be with a man who doesn’t want to be around his kids. The day of men working all day, coming home to pat junior on the head and then heading off to the study to read the paper all evening are over. Today we have evolved to involved families. Not just involved mothers. Today men are taking time off work to go to their kids’ school music programs or sporting events. Today I see several dads on school field trips. At the kids’ wax museum, Lee and I ran in to many, many dads. Today dads are staying home with their kids.

There is no perfect formula that fits every family. Heck, there’s no perfect formula that fits every child. After Skyler & Spencer were born I quickly discovered that worked to sooth Keaton just succeeded in ticking off Skyler & Spencer. In fact what worked for Spencer didn’t always work for Skyler. Everybody is different. You just need to do what works for your family.

Lee and I never set out for Lee to be a stay-at-home. It never even crossed our mind. But he lost his job installing cable and without a degree he couldn’t find a job that paid what he was making. So he stayed home. Neither of us was really sure how it would work out. But it has been such a great experience for everybody.

With Lee at home he has learned how difficult it really is to be the primary caretaker. He has a better appreciation of what it takes to raise a child. I think our marriage has gotten stronger because of this. He’s more plugged in to our family and our household. We share chores equally and therefore have more time for each other.

During that caretaking Lee has really bonded with the kids. He has such a great relationship with Skyler, Spencer and Caleb. I don’t think they would be this close if Lee wasn’t home every day after school, running them to activities, helping them with homework and hosting playdates with their friends.

And the kids get to learn important lessons that only dad’s can teach them. They get to horseplay (something I rarely let them do). He spoils them rotten by letting them by a small toy when they go to the grocery store (again something I seldom do).

If that’s unnatural, then I don’t want to be natural.

Moron exhibit #2:

ME: in my opinion only very ugly woman, controlling with low self stem will accept to support a guy and allow him to stay at home with the kids I don’t care what a good job a men can do there is not way you can compare the care of a good mom, it’s not in their instinct, so I don’t care what a “open mind” you want to be go and get a real man and loss that P….Y that you have as a husband! Matty

I had to read Matty’s comment several times before I could even fully understand this illiterate blubber. But apparently I am a very ugly and controlling woman with low self esteem. And Lee just doesn’t have the instinct to be a parent. I think Matty needs to go back to school and get his high school diploma because that is just ludicrous. I can guarantee that any man that has the courage to stay home all day long with children is no pussy. Successful women aren’t necessarily controlling bitches. And men absolutely have the instinct to be a good parent.

I’m so tired of hearing about how fathers are the second rate parent. I was raised by my father. He wasn’t a stay-at-home dad, but he was a single dad for many years. And he did a fantastic job raising me and teaching me to be a good role to my own children. Stop selling dad’s short. They may not parent exactly the same way moms do, but they are fully capable of being loving and caring parents.